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MisterAG

LVO Finals and Semifinals Nonsense

5 posts in this topic

Hey guys,

One of the benefits of having the LVO stream games all weekend long is that we get to see some absolute garbage that goes on in the hobby as soon as winning becomes important. I didn't watch this live, but I saw several comments about 'drama' over on DakkaDakka, and eventually found someone who made a great summary.

Looks like during one of the two semifinals the two players agreed to not pull any shennanigans and play the game by 'intent of action'. I won't speak for the players involved, but it certainly seemed that way:

https://clips.twitch.tv/DoubtfulRespectfulOpossumImGlitch

 

Looks like during the bottom of turn one, the player brings in his Assassins out of deep strike before completing several other move actions (the Assassins enter from reserves at the end of the movement phase). The other player (Tony) declares the movement phase is over due to the out of sequence moves. The Assassin player protests briefly before nearly conceding the game in frustration. He quickly decides to play on but is eventually defeated. Tony moves on to the finals to play Nick.

https://clips.twitch.tv/JollyFragileCheetahPeteZarollTie


In the finals game it appears that Tony moves and Advances a unit to set up a charge. I guess that the Eldar have a stratagem permitting them to charge after an Advance move (something that is typically not allowed). Nick does not permit Tony to make his charge move, since the stratagem needs to be played in the Movement phase instead of the Charge phase. Nick goes so far to admit that he is only being no nitpicky because of Tony's shenannigans in the semifinal. Tony is displeased.

https://clips.twitch.tv/SuaveGleamingSpiderWOOP

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I think that both of the instances of Rules Laywering (there! I said it!) are shameful. If you don't want to remind me that I have a unit in reserve on the first turn that's fine. If you ask me "Are you sure you're done shooting?" while I'm forgetting my Devestators and then say "no take backs" that's fine. This, however, is silly. Any time you know full well what your opponent is doing don't be nitpicky.

I don't have any solutions for the first example aside from don't be an ass. The victim of this situation handled it like a gentleman and accepted his fate, as lame as it was.

Regarding the second example, had Tony said "I'm going to move and Advance these dudes. I've got a stratagem that allows them to still charge" that would have been good enough for me. I'm sure it would have also been good enough for Nick, too,  had Tony not been an ass in the first example.

 

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This is where I'm conflicted. I really support being a good guy and playing nice, but at the same time, my instinct is that in a high-end tourney, such as the LVO (which I think is the largest 40k tourney of the year), the Game Rules need to come first. It's not just a few models you're winning at that point, and that can bring out some inappropriate behaviour. In Magic, there are very firm rules, and an infraction guide that informs judges on the severity of breaching those rules. In the first scenario, the players seem to have agreed to using what, in Magic parlance, is called a "shortcut". They are saying "hey, rather than going through all the steps, let's just say they happen and agree on the end result". If both players agree to the shortcut, neither play is allowed to interrupt that shortcut. If this were the case, the judge would be able to step in to say "sorry, but you agreed to this shortcut". Unfortunately, I'm not 100% sure that's the case, because the shortcut was made pre-game and affects the whole game, which is a little over-arching. Instead, players should agree to more specific shortcuts like "is it okay if I deploy these deep strikers now, and then finish the rest of my moves later"? This would have made it much clearer, and more likely that a judge would know how to resolve it.

In the second such game, no such shortcut was agreed to. As such, Tony is 100% in the right for calling this out.

Shortcuts are really helpful to use in the game, but, especially for such high-level play, you need to hash them out much more thoroughly than just "hey, let's agree to be civil".

That all said, I'm surprised that such high-level players would agree to such a shortcut, because they each have stratagems that let me do a lot of things at odd points. Choosing whether or not to fire off the Eldar-equivalent Auspex Scanner stratagem is a real decision point when you don't know where models are going to end their moves, or if your opponent will or won't be activating other stratagems

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As much as I hate rules lawyers, at a high level event such as LVO I expect that both players know the rules in and out for their armies and the game. The event itself isn't just about who has the best army (*cough eldar bullshit*) but about knowing the game itself in and out as well as everyone else's armies. You can give the top lists to many players but very few can pilot them as the original.

In a tournament setting where there is cash or high level prizes on the line I fully support rules lawyering (even if its against me). A) I am happy to know a mistake I was making. and B) The rules are the rules for a reason, as much as I vocally disagree with certain things, it's still the game.

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When I watch these streams, I am always surprised at how poorly people seem to know their own rules. These are supposed to be players with dozens of reps of practice going into these 'uge tournaments and yet they make the same mistakes that we all make at league night.

 

To me, it was the interaction that left me salty. The absolute snarkiness got me all mad. It didn't take a mind reader in either situation to know what was happening and that you were outright screwing the other player. 

 

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I want to play a game and have fun. If ITC had a sportsmanship portion like beer and pretzels....  In both examples the people were bring jerks. That much Lee way should be allowed in a game. Unless there is an advantage. Let's pretend the assassin gave a +1 movement aura bonus. I wouldn't let you get the bonus if you brought the assassin down early.

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